Curse

fallot · Sep 11, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Some people seem to be forgetting that anyone can make a PvP character, so you can't be "unfair to PvE characters" by giving PvP-only ones an equal footing to the best in PvE.

On another note, I think MMOs are making people dumber :/

Red · Sep 11, 2006, 08:07 AM // 08:07

We meet again, Lyra. Feels like I've danced some of this dance before over here in that other thread... I noticed you've got some useless posts in here, too. I'd offer my condolescenes, but you do it too, so...

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Regarding Lyra's Crazy Idea: YES.

It would likely be a programming nightmare, but for what it is, it's genius. Assuming you -knew- what professions you would run in PvP, or that you bought enough slots to have one of each... you would never have to waste a slot by reserving it for PvP roll-ups again. Your half-raised PvE monk could also double as your PvP monk.... I completely agree on using this idea, allowing PvEs to access for free all unlocked SKILLS ONLY.

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Regarding Lyra's two methods: inventory locking and PvP expanded options: -_-

Well, Inventory Locking is certainly one way to level the playing field. At that point, assuming same weaponry setups, there'd be no way to determine a PvE from a PvP. And of course, this method is most in line with what Izzy appears to have said so many months ago.

However, I actually kind of like the armor switching mid-battle. I made a suggestion in my inventory management thread that would actually work, whether or not inventory lock was instituted. I'm including it here, though, because it can work either in addition to your Locking Inventory and Expand Weaponry Options suggestion... or it can completely replace it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red

The entire issue here is that, because PvEers have an advantage, there is at least a reason--if not a need--for high-end PvPers to raise up and prepare Roleplaying characters. If they took away the armor advantadge, that would help, but....

... I think a far better solution than that, is to have Armor, Weapon, and Rune merchants be in PvP zones and allow crafting and runes to be purchased ABSOLUTELY FREE. We finally have a secondary profession changer in the Great Temple of Balthazar for PvP characters... why not let them craft new armor, weapons with unlocked mods, and received unlocked unrunes--unlimited, untradable, and completely free. It would in effect be no different than the PvP creation screen... except for the lack of certain Minus Energy weapons and offhands, but that's another discussion*... but it would allow for near instant rerunes, new weapons, new setups, etc. The flexibility of a PvE character who hoards weapons and armor.... on a PvP character. FTW.

*obviously, the lack of some weapons for PvP characters -is- an issue in this thread. Those should definitely be offering to PvP characters.

I think I saw something like this suggested a few pages back, but I thought it beared repeating. PvEs can go out and recreate armor at any time.... allow PvPs to do the same?

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Final addition: time =/= skill

From the official website, on the Gameplay Synopsis page--basically, the "Why you should buy GW and not WoW or EQ" page... http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/synopsis/

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANet

Built for Competition

If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you. In addition to building up a character by undergoing missions and quests, you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare. The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.

This thread is for working towards the perfect realization of the Skill > Time ideology.

If your post includes the phrase "I worked for hours on my character, so..." or "Why should a PvP characters get this for free when a PvE has to..." or anything of that sort...

... if your post refers to the time spent, then you are instantly going against the game's basic premise. Don't bother submitting your post; it's wrong. If you think Guild Wars' ideology needs to be changed, then go make another thread.

Minus Sign · Sep 11, 2006, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plastic Cutlery

You people talking about "blah blah blah I grinded I should have an advantage" aren't realizing if I am PURE PVP I grinded for balthazar faction to unlock EVERYTHING, how about that?

Exactly right. You grinded balth and have access to everything you grinded for. I grinded PvE and have access to what is in my inventory, what skills that toon has capped, and whatever I spent MONEY on to get. You want balance? Ok; pay something for every armor/weapon/rune you use when making a PvP toon. I do on my PvEers when I re-build. Why is it fair that you don’t have to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I bought this game, mainly because of A-net's advertisement: "the only game where skill is more important than hours played".

Oh yeah. That’s why…

/rant

/Notsignedever. This is just laziness on the part of the supporters and one more attempt by PvP only players to segregate themselves from PvE play. PvP toons are useful because you can test builds in a matter of minutes without buying a few k worth of stuff to go along with it. You have access to every mod ever unlocked, not just the weapons you lug around in your inventory. You have access to every skill ever bought, capped, or unlocked with balth. And now you want MORE handed to you on a silver platter? I say again; lazy.

Your PvP toon is not hindered by the inability to armor swap. It has abilities equal to any PvE toon; even surpassing in many regards. 2 Automatically customized perfect weapons @ no cost. Free Droks equivalent armor. Free runes. Access to any skill ever unlocked by any character ever.

That’s not saying I don’t have advantages. Because of armor swaps, I’m a little (and I mean very little) bit more flexible in combat.

But I paid out the nose for that flexibility. I play all the game to get "everything". If you only want to play half, expect to miss out on something.

I’ve been PvEing for almost a year now. My PvE toons have a slight advantage over the PvP character you’ve customized with unlocked skills...as they have over any character that's newly Ascended to level 20.

Just like your custom PvP toon has advantage over a pre-made that someone who just bought the game is using. But the guy who just bought the pre-made can still kick my butt—and yours—if he’s good enough. Skill over time played. If he’s better than both of us, my armor swaps won’t matter any more than your extra skill choice/Vampiric mod, etc.

I’ll make it simple: if you want the minor advantages of a PvE toon in PvP play, spend the PvE plat to get them. And if you don’t care about them enough to farm/grind/cap/trade/bust hump to get them? Live without.

In closing: blah blah blah; I grinded for this advantage--squeezed everything I could get out of my PvE--and if you want the same performance so should you.

Red · Sep 11, 2006, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign, abridged but not edited

In closing: blah blah blah; I grinded for this advantage... and if you want the same performance so should you.

Self-pwnd imo

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

I dont consider starting at lvl 20 and having easy access to max everything to be an advantage at all, since PvE chars can get to lvl 20 and get max weapons and armor also (and much faster in factions, you have to admit).

How is it an advantage when both types have access to the same thing? Even if the pvp account has faster access out of the gate, it doesnt really mean an advantage.

I would compare it to a drag race with a car with high torque and high acceleration but low top speed vs a car with low torque, low acceleration and a very high top speed in a drag race that goes on for 10 miles.

Sure the high acceleration car would be in front of the high top speed car for about...30 seconds. Then the gears would level out on the high acceleration car would read top gear and it wouldnt be able to keep up with the higher top speed car.

A little story:

When my account was young (about 1 month), i PvPed as a monk for my guild in TA quite a lot, using the word of healing pre-made. Now since my account was very young, i didnt have any unlocked superior monk runes or most weapon mods, and that made my monking less than adequate. x.x

I was lvl 20 with max armor, but i had no monk elite skills except what the premade gave me, nor enough balthazar points to unlock new ones because my team kept getting thrashed (this was before the double points thing). Having no unlocked elites, mods, or even most monk skills is a serious disadvantage, even if i was lvl 20 with max armor and max weapons.

-----------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

I agree with you on many issues, but I disagree with your methods. I don't believe hampering a PvE account in any way is viable. I would rather see a PvP orientation be increased (either adding a weapons customizer and/or armor crafter to battle isles.)

Im very happy to hear that. ^_^

Please add your input into alternatives to make the two playing styles equal. More options and ideas is good.

Increasing PVP character options is one way, i agree, but i dislike this method.

My ideas are boosting PVE characters one way but restricting them another way. so i guess we'll have to disagree there

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Redly: Yes i bumped this thread as a response to yours and other recent PvP/PvE related problem threads that have cropped up recently that my idea has tried to address in its core.

Your problem of armor storage and weapon setup for PVP would be completely relieved by my crazy idea #3 because your PVE char would be able to change armor setups/weapons without eating up actual slots in your inventory.

Forrin · Sep 11, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Signed, then I would finally be able to stop playing PvE.

It has bothered me for a long time that I'm forced to play a part of this game I really don't enjoy so I don't have a disadvantage in the part that I do enjoy.

Red · Sep 11, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I would compare it to a drag race with a car with high torque and high acceleration but low top speed vs a car with low torque, low acceleration and a very high top speed in a drag race that goes on for 10 miles. Sure the high acceleration car would be in front of the high top speed car for about...30 seconds. Then the gears would level out on the high acceleration car would read top gear and it wouldnt be able to keep up with the higher top speed car.

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Redly: Your problem of armor storage and weapon setup for PVP would be completely relieved by my crazy idea #3 because your PVE char would be able to change armor setups/weapons without eating up actual slots in your inventory.

An apt comparison. The real issue is that, though PvPers can more easily changes things in the beginning, you can raise a PvE character to match what a PvP has access too... but you can never 'raise' a PvP character to match a PvEer

About the crazy idea.... while letting PvEers use PvP armor in those zones is a neat idea, it would no doubt be a programming nightmare... and either way, whether they want to do that or not, why not fix the problem more immediately. Give us the PvP free armor/weapon/run/mod merchants NOW, as a quick fix while we wait a more permanent solution.

Minus Sign · Sep 11, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redly

Self-pwnd imo

Someone has no grasp of sarcasm. That, or he doesn't read a post through before commenting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I dont consider starting at lvl 20 and having easy access to max everything to be an advantage at all, since PvE chars can get to lvl 20 and get max weapons and armor also (and much faster in factions, you have to admit).

How is it an advantage when both types have access to the same thing? Even if the pvp account has faster access out of the gate, it doesnt really mean an advantage.

Of course you don't lyra_song, else we wouldn't be having this discussion. Out of the gate and Cheap as free are two entirely different things. Does your PvP character pay for any of the perfect modded weapons you use? Only if they're bought in PvE. Does your PvP character have to farm for craft materials, money, runes et al to gain his armor? What if the rune setup you're using doesn't work with the build you want to run? Do you need another to salvage your runes and respec, costing more money? Do you need to carry half a dozen pieces of off hand armor with you--after purchase--to make sure when you respec that you can you have all you need?

No; you don't. You respec in a minute or two in the character creation screen and you're done. You didn't spend hours farming for your armor, and you don't want to. I get that. It can be a pain in the rear. But to expect the advantages of grind without grind is--quite frankly--a little silly.

As important: PvE armor costs money or storage. Depending on situation, both can be equally valuable. PvP is an open slot on your account. PvE tooned PvPers have to make these calls. And we do. Do I want yet another armor set for yet another build? Do I need to get buy these mods? How much is it going to cost me--be it just buying the equipement I need or selling old items (another question: do I customize this weapon that is worth 100s of plat? Or do I accept a loss on damage in PvP so I don't have to sell this item to a trader for a few 100 gold?) to make room for new ones--to remain flexible. Doing that a few times can become a very expensive habit.

There are downsides to running PvE characters in the PvP environment. Its time consuming, expensive, and sometimes a little bit hard. Thats part of the challenge of the game for me. learn a build in PvP, find all its tweeks, its twists and wants, and set it up in a PvE toon so that I can play it to greatest effect in all situations. Take that away, this game becomes boring; the expense of PvE armor and weapons making older toons useless. Frankly: why run PvE toons in PvP when I already have UAS and this? Who has the advantage now? What use is a PvE toon when you make them "PvP"? Whats easier to farm? balth faction alone, or everything else. You know the answer. You know that answer because you don't want to be forced to grind a PvE toon into PvP servicability. Hince this idea of yours.

I've explained that as best I can--twice now. If you can't or don't want to see that, then I can't help you. Onward:

I submit to you, from your story, that your early failings had less to do with your equipment and more to do with your inexpierence. Point of fact, there are many monks that use no major or superior runes beyond vigor. Actually, one of the prime uses of armor swaps is to remove superior runed armor when in combat with spike teams, increasing your HP to assist the infuser.

Counter story: my guild needed a warrior for a KD build we wanted to try. Rather than spend large quantities of balth faction unlocking all the required skills on a toon he rarely plays, a guildie used the shock warrior template from the premade and a few tweeks of our own design. He made no complaints about how inferiror that warrior was to others he had played; I noticed no difference between his playing ability on a PvP only toon and his normal PvE toons. Its not the first time he's run warrior builds--nor the last.

This was a "skilled" player running a premade toon. Put that in the hands of a newb; we see a different result. Put MY toons in the hands of a 1 month old newb and we'd see different results too.

Lastly; about your example: hardly apt I'm afraid. Both drivers are using their whole car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

I play all the game to get "everything". If you only want to play half, expect to miss out on something.

Not only expect it. Accept it. Counter that argument to my satisfaction and I'll support this. Until then; I do not endorse PvP segregation ever. Whether intended or not, this is PvP segregation on a nuclear scale.

Red · Sep 11, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Someone has no grasp of sarcasm. That, or he doesn't read a post through before commenting.

Um...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

This is just laziness on the part of the supporters and one more attempt by PvP only players to segregate themselves from PvE play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Your PvP toon is not hindered by the inability to armor swap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

But I paid out the nose for that flexibility. I play all the game to get "everything".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

If he’s better than both of us, my armor swaps won’t matter any more than your extra skill choice/Vampiric mod, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign, edited

if you want the minor advantages of a PvE toon in PvP play, spend the PvE plat (read: grind) to get them.

Laziness? Being able to roll a PvP isn't an add-on; it's a selling point for this game. And, some people just don't LIKE the PvE portion of Guild Wars, and buy it specifically for the PvP. It's not being lazy; it's called playing the game you like... and anyone who wants to argue that PvE and PvP are truly the same game needs to try a bit more PvP.

PvP toons aren't hindered? Completely wrong. When my monk can enter battle with a Superior Divine Favor rune, and switch to a minor in case of DP... that is a significant advantage. About 75 HP of advantage imo.

You paying out the nose for flexibility shouldn't be an issue. That sounds like grind to me; and we're not supposed to have to grind in Guild Wars.

And as far as weapon swaps not making a difference? Tell that to the PvP character who took a 20/20 staff in one set, and a +30/-2 set for spikes in the other... and then gets stuck in one of the terrain glitches of Guild Wars. Without a vamp weapon, your 'better player' now can not attack anyone outside his range, and contributes nothing beyond that. All you can do is beg the other team to kill him.

Honestly? Accusing me of lacking comprehension skills? Try writing a relevant thought to comprehend and maybe it won't be an issue.

Minus Sign · Sep 11, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redly

Laziness? Being able to roll a PvP isn't an add-on; it's a selling point for this game.

Where the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO did I ever say it wasn't? I said you don't get everything with a PvP just because you want to.

Quote:

And, some people just don't LIKE the PvE portion of Guild Wars, and buy it specifically for the PvP. It's not being lazy; it's called playing the game you like... and anyone who wants to argue that PvE and PvP are truly the same game needs to try a bit more PvP.

I notice you avoid the second part of my quote that deals directly with this issue. This is not an FPS Redly; stop trying to make it one. Since you keep missing it, lemme help:

I PLAY ALL THE GAME TO GET "EVERYTHING". IF YOU ONLY WANT TO PLAY HALF, EXPECT TO MISS OUT ON SOMETHING.

PvE and PvP exist together. Live with it.

Quote:

PvP toons aren't hindered? Completely wrong. When my monk can enter battle with a Superior Divine Favor rune, and switch to a minor in case of DP... that is a significant advantage. About 75 HP of advantage imo.

Conceeded. PvE toons have that advantage. But...

Quote:

You paying out the nose for flexibility shouldn't be an issue. That sounds like grind to me; and we're not supposed to have to grind in Guild Wars.

A common misconception. Skill is greater than time played does not translate into zero grind. Anet wants people to have an attachment to their characters. They want people to have an attachment to this game. Thats one way they make money.

This isn't Halo and we're not all the MC. This is a Role Playing Game catering to multiple sectors of players and types of play.

Quote:

And as far as weapon swaps not making a difference? Tell that to the PvP character who took a 20/20 staff in one set, and a +30/-2 set for spikes in the other... and then gets stuck in one of the terrain glitches of Guild Wars. Without a vamp weapon, your 'better player' now can not attack anyone outside his range, and contributes nothing beyond that. All you can do is beg the other team to kill him.

You're arguing glitches??? Call for a bug fix or buy a vamp mod and keep it in storage. Problem solved.

Quote:

Honestly? Accusing me of lacking comprehension skills? Try writing a relevant thought to comprehend and maybe it won't be an issue.

I call em like I see em. If you don't want none, don't start none.

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Of course you don't lyra_song, else we wouldn't be having this discussion. Out of the gate and Cheap as free are two entirely different things. Does your PvP character pay for any of the perfect modded weapons you use? Only if they're bought in PvE. Does your PvP character have to farm for craft materials, money, runes et al to gain his armor? What if the rune setup you're using doesn't work with the build you want to run? Do you need another to salvage your runes and respec, costing more money? Do you need to carry half a dozen pieces of off hand armor with you--after purchase--to make sure when you respec that you can you have all you need?

No; you don't. You respec in a minute or two in the character creation screen and you're done.

Please dont tell me how I play the game.

I have 8 slots. I have one of each character type except the Assassin, that slot is my PvP. My warrior carries 4 armor sets and has at least 6-8 of each weapon type (hammer/axe/sword) + Stonefists + various helmets + my farming gear and 1 of each kind of shield (enchanted, hexed, stance and -5(20%) ). My ranger carriers at least 12 bows, including the candycane bow when shes a trapper, another imbalanced item btw. My monk currently only has 2 armor sets, but im farming money to buy another +5 one handed weapon for my mesmer, who btw carries 2 armor sets. Im building up my Ele and Necromancer for PvP, so in the meantime, ill be using PvP slot for those functions. My ritualist is gonna be for farming only.

Dont presume to tell me how i play the game. Thanks. I use my PVE characters to PVP.

Quote:

You didn't spend hours farming for your armor, and you don't want to. I get that. It can be a pain in the rear. But to expect the advantages of grind without grind is--quite frankly--a little silly.

I do farm. I farm mindlessly. But i actually find it fun.....And really i shouldnt have any advantage.

Quote:

As important: PvE armor costs money or storage. Depending on situation, both can be equally valuable. PvP is an open slot on your account. PvE tooned PvPers have to make these calls. And we do. Do I want yet another armor set for yet another build? Do I need to get buy these mods? How much is it going to cost me--be it just buying the equipement I need or selling old items (another question: do I customize this weapon that is worth 100s of plat? Or do I accept a loss on damage in PvP so I don't have to sell this item to a trader for a few 100 gold?) to make room for new ones--to remain flexible. Doing that a few times can become a very expensive habit.

Yes i do use my PvP slot to test out rune setups. But i dont use it in the long run because its inferior to my PvE characters.

Quote:

There are downsides to running PvE characters in the PvP environment. Its time consuming, expensive, and sometimes a little bit hard. Thats part of the challenge of the game for me. learn a build in PvP, find all its tweeks, its twists and wants, and set it up in a PvE toon so that I can play it to greatest effect in all situations.

You sure got that right. But anything for an advantage right?

Quote:

Take that away, this game becomes boring; the expense of PvE armor and weapons making older toons useless. Frankly: why run PvE toons in PvP when I already have UAS and this? Who has the advantage now? What use is a PvE toon when you make them "PvP"? Whats easier to farm? balth faction alone, or everything else. You know the answer.

To me farming Balth or Luxon or Kurzick faction OR Gold or Materials is all the same. Depends on what my mood is. Its one game to me.

Quote:

You know that answer because you don't want to be forced to grind a PvE toon into PvP servicability. Hince this idea of yours.

Ya...read my answer to this above.

Quote:

I've explained that as best I can--twice now. If you can't or don't want to see that, then I can't help you.

Sorry, im still confused.

Quote:

I submit to you, from your story, that your early failings had less to do with your equipment and more to do with your inexpierence. Point of fact, there are many monks that use no major or superior runes beyond vigor. Actually, one of the prime uses of armor swaps is to remove superior runed armor when in combat with spike teams, increasing your HP to assist the infuser.

Yes i was a newb. But you fail to see the reason i put it up. Which was:

Having access to lvl 20, max armor, max weapons etc is not an advantage. The instant access isnt so magical.

If i had a PVE character that was lvl 20, max armor, max weapons, i would still have been a newb.

Quote:

Counter story: my guild needed a warrior for a KD build we wanted to try. Rather than spend large quantities of balth faction unlocking all the required skills on a toon he rarely plays, a guildie used the shock warrior template from the premade and a few tweeks of our own design. He made no complaints about how inferiror that warrior was to others he had played; I noticed no difference between his playing ability on a PvP only toon and his normal PvE toons. Its not the first time he's run warrior builds--nor the last.

Thats great. Where was he when the templates were garbage?

Quote:

This was a "skilled" player running a premade toon. Put that in the hands of a newb; we see a different result. Put MY toons in the hands of a 1 month old newb and we'd see different results too.

Yes. Thats how it should be. Skill SHOULD determine who is the winner. Isn't that the point?

Quote:

Lastly; about your example: hardly apt I'm afraid. Both drivers are using their whole car.

Inline 4 vs a V6? V8? V10? V12?

How about a small twin turbo vs a larger turbo that takes longer to spool up?

Direct injected? Nitrous? Aluminum or fiberglass frame? LSD? Smaller wheels accelerate faster than larger wheels too...Dont forget different octane mixes.

Sure we could both be using our whole cars, but they can perform quite differently.

Quote:

Not only expect it. Accept it. Counter that argument to my satisfaction and I'll support this. Until then; I do not endorse PvP segregation ever. Whether intended or not, this is PvP segregation on a nuclear scale.

LOL. PvP segregation?!!?! I'm trying to UNITE the two player types.

Im trying to make it so a PVE toon and a PVP toon makes no difference whatsoever in the outcome of a match except how pretty the corpse will be.

Red · Sep 11, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

PvE and PvP exist together. Live with it.

Skill is greater than time played does not translate into zero grind. Anet wants people to have an attachment to their characters. They want people to have an attachment to this game. Thats one way they make money.

This isn't Halo and we're not all the MC. This is a Role Playing Game catering to multiple sectors of players and types of play.

First, I'll concede that the vamp example was gimped. How about this one:
20/20 set, 30/-2 set, and HP+ set (HP+30 offhand, and possible HP+30 sword) for spikes.

Three very, very legitmate GvG weapon sets. And a PvP can only roll up two.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~

As for the rest of your post, about PvP and PvE existing together, inseperable, designed that way by ANet....
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10041518

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

In the near future, a purchase of Prophecies will not be required to purchase the Prophecies All-Profession Skill Unlock Pack. Those who purchase this pack will be able to create Prophecies PvP characters and play PvP without purchasing the game itself. At that time, we'll rename the pack to something like Guild Wars Prophecies PvP Edition.

You may now leave the thread. gg

Sli Ander · Sep 11, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redly

Laziness? Being able to roll a PvP isn't an add-on; it's a selling point for this game. And, some people just don't LIKE the PvE portion of Guild Wars, and buy it specifically for the PvP. It's not being lazy; it's called playing the game you like... and anyone who wants to argue that PvE and PvP are truly the same game needs to try a bit more PvP.

PvP toons aren't hindered? Completely wrong. When my monk can enter battle with a Superior Divine Favor rune, and switch to a minor in case of DP... that is a significant advantage. About 75 HP of advantage imo.

You paying out the nose for flexibility shouldn't be an issue. That sounds like grind to me; and we're not supposed to have to grind in Guild Wars.

And as far as weapon swaps not making a difference? Tell that to the PvP character who took a 20/20 staff in one set, and a +30/-2 set for spikes in the other... and then gets stuck in one of the terrain glitches of Guild Wars. Without a vamp weapon, your 'better player' now can not attack anyone outside his range, and contributes nothing beyond that. All you can do is beg the other team to kill him.

Honestly? Accusing me of lacking comprehension skills? Try writing a relevant thought to comprehend and maybe it won't be an issue.

I hate walking into Pve/pvp debates, so I'll make this one comment and go do something better with my day.(forgive me for that fact I don't have the time to read the 3 pages of posts I missed since last I read this thread)
The selling point for pvp is that you can walk in and instantly play a lvl 20 with 2 perfect weapons, etc, etc, blah blah blah. Playing a pve player in pvp (just for the armor swaps/weapon swaps) is just like FOW armor. It's not necessary to be competitive(especially with the skill unlock packs now). As was stated earlier, if someone walks in with a lvl 20 premade, he can still beat you if he is more skilled. Being a pve with armor swaps wouldn't make much difference. This is like FOW armor in this: If you want that bonus benefit(read: If you want that special looking armor) then you're going to have to play pve to earn it(read: you're going to have to earn it). Playing a pvp instant lvl 20 in no way gimps your ability to play pvp if you have enough skill. If you want the extra stuff, be prepared to work for it.

/edit /sigh stayed and read back anyway. I like to think of the game realistically. so I'll sign for locking against armor switching for now. It should raise the skill level of the players if they can't just switch in the middle of nowhere.

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

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Originally Posted by Sli Ander

Playing a pvp instant lvl 20 in no way gimps your ability to play pvp if you have enough skill.

I believe they call that a handicap in golf.

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If you want the extra stuff, be prepared to work for it.

I agree. But that extra stuff should not grant you any advantage in any way whatsoever.

Minus Sign · Sep 11, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

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Originally Posted by lyra_song

Please dont tell me how I play the game.

I have 8 slots. I have one of each character type except the Assassin, that slot is my PvP. My warrior carries 4 armor sets and has at least 6-8 of each weapon type (hammer/axe/sword) + Stonefists + various helmets + my farming gear and 1 of each kind of shield (enchanted, hexed, stance and -5(20%) ). My ranger carriers at least 12 bows, including the candycane bow when shes a trapper, another imbalanced item btw. My monk currently only has 2 armor sets, but im farming money to buy another +5 one handed weapon for my mesmer, who btw carries 2 armor sets. Im building up my Ele and Necromancer for PvP, so in the meantime, ill be using PvP slot for those functions. My ritualist is gonna be for farming only.

Dont presume to tell me how i play the game. Thanks. I use my PVE characters to PVP.

Conceeded. I appologise for making broad generalizations and adding you to them. Since there have been several people in this thread taking the "I PvP only" argument, I hope you can forgive the error.

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I do farm. I farm mindlessly. But i actually find it fun.....And really i shouldnt have any advantage.

Why not? You worked for that advantage when others choose not to. Whether you enjoyed that work or not is nonissue. You did something they didn't.

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Yes i do use my PvP slot to test out rune setups. But i dont use it in the long run because its inferior to my PvE characters.

You sure got that right. But anything for an advantage right?

No actually. Manys the time when an item combination was too expensive for me to respec a PvE toon to run with it. When that happens, I run a PvP toon and fill out the gaps as best I can.

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To me farming Balth or Luxon or Kurzick faction OR Gold or Materials is all the same. Depends on what my mood is. Its one game to me.

Gratz to you then. I find farming Balth faction by far the more expiedient when it comes to skill/weapon unlocks. All other sources are for specific points of interest for PvE or title/endgame.

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Sorry, im still confused.

Too bad. The primary argument has been summated 3 times now, the last time in bold italics and underline. You can't have missed it without concious effort. After the last time, I no longer give you the option to ignore it. Since you have yet to refute that statement, I will accpet it as your loss.

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Yes i was a newb. But you fail to see the reason i put it up. Which was:

Having access to lvl 20, max armor, max weapons etc is not an advantage. The instant access isnt so magical.

If i had a PVE character that was lvl 20, max armor, max weapons, i would still have been a newb.

You're right. I understood your intent with that little story to be that the template characters were woefully less than the customs you are now able to create (which, by proxy, would make PvE characters quantitatively better than the customs to those who don't know better on this issue). You make my point in your last sentence of this quote and again in the second quote after this.

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Thats great. Where was he when the templates were garbage?

I'll have to ask him to be certain but I don't think he was playing back then. I believe he's to GW newer than I...and a better player tbh.

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Yes. Thats how it should be. Skill SHOULD determine who is the winner. Isn't that the point?

And skill does, as the story in that post showed. Not only is that how it should be; that it how it is.

To quote Redly: GG

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Sure we could both be using our whole cars, but they can perform quite differently.

Last time: you may not be PvP only, but many of your supporters are. Your very analogy fails because you refuse to accept that I was talking about PvP only play style in the quote. Since they are your supporters, they become part of your argument whether you want them to be or not. I direct you to the first quote on the first post of mine in this thread. If you won't let it this go; fine. How much does an Inline V6 twin turbo w/NOS, stage 3 weight reduction, stand alone fuel managment system on custom wheels go for? How much to build, maintain, and run? A person who has built a machine like that is going to be plenty pissed off when another racer goes to the car manufacturer and says "Hey man! That car can go faster than mine. Rip out his racing chip and stick this stock one back in." I don't know about you but any fool who tries to downgrade my ride when I have her that pumped is going to get buckshot inserted somewhere.

And before you try equating Guild Wars to Nascar: every build is different. One BL is not the same as the next one. Tweeks are a name of the game and a way to find edge. As I've stated in other threads if you want true balance make everyone a Whammo with no skillbars and wands.

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LOL. PvP segregation?!!?! I'm trying to UNITE the two player types.

Im trying to make it so a PVE toon and a PVP toon makes no difference whatsoever in the outcome of a match except how pretty the corpse will be.

You are failing. Your suggestions will push PvE toons out of PvP. If you can't see that, too bad.

*reads Redly's post* Note to self:...no. Don't. You can't heal stupid Minus, so don't try...

lyra_song · Sep 11, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Conceeded. I appologise for making broad generalizations and adding you to them. Since there have been several people in this thread taking the "I PvP only" argument, I hope you can forgive the error.

^^ sure sure. Im enjoying this arguement/discussion/whatever this is.

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Why not? You worked for that advantage when others choose not to. Whether you enjoyed that work or not is nonissue. You did something they didn't.

My conscience nags me quite a bit. :-/ Its like killing a team with a member who lagged out...thats not fun or fair. There is no honor in that.

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No actually. Manys the time when an item combination was too expensive for me to respec a PvE toon to run with it. When that happens, I run a PvP toon and fill out the gaps as best I can.

Do you agree that there is a weakness in the PvP char then? What are you refering to in "gaps"

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Too bad. The primary argument has been summated 3 times now, the last time in bold italics and underline. You can't have missed it without concious effort. If you cannot refute it, accept it as a loss. After this post, I no longer give you the option to ignore it.

I was being sarcastic, thats what the smiley was for. :P

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And skill does, as the story in that post showed. Not only is that how it should be; that it how it is.

But do you still concede that both character classes are not even? Even if you win with inferior equipment, that shows a good player. That doesn't mean that the fight was fair.

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Last time: you may not be PvP only, but many of your supporters are. Your very analogy fails because you refuse to accept that I was talking about PvP only play style in the quote. Since they are your supporters, they become part of your argument whether you want them to be or not. I direct you to the first quote on the first post of mine in this thread.

The PVP only players are a part of my arguement. They are the reason i bumped this thread. This thread is more relevant than ever because of Anet's recent announcements.

There will be players who have no choice but PVP only when they release the Tournment Edition/PvP-Only version of Prophecies.

Haven't I been saying that?

They will only have the PVP part of the game. No PVE. How is fair for them?

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If you won't let it this go; fine. How much does an Inline V6 twin turbo w/NOS, stage 3 weight reduction, stand alone fuel managment system on custom wheels go for? How much to build, maintain, and run? A person who has built a machine like that is going to be plenty pissed off when another racer goes to the car manufacturer and says "Hey man! That car can go faster than mine. Rip out his racing chip and stick this stock one back in." I don't know about you but any fool who tries to downgrade my ride when I have her that pumped is going to get buckshot inserted somewhere.

Well first of all, you cant have an I & V6. Its either I6 or V6. Pick one. Once it goes past 4 cylinders, it usually goes to V6, although subaru makes an H6 for the legacy/forester, but thats another story.

Second. Weaker cars are given a head start. I believe its usually 3 car lengths. To make things fair. .-. Usually doesnt help because the superior equipment usually wins unless the driver is an idiot and misshifts and kills the engine.

It's like boxing. A 200 lb fighter would not be allowed to fight a 150 lb fighter. Thats just...mean.

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And before you try equating Guild Wars to Nascar: every build is different. One BL is not the same as the next one. Tweeks are a name of the game and a way to find edge. As I've stated in other threads if you want true balance make everyone a Whammo with no skillbars and wands.

Actually every car in NASCAR is custom built and have to fit within certain guidelines to make them legal for competition use. But im not talking NASCAR. .-.

That would be balanced but really boring.

Heres how i see it. We all have access to the same weapons. same skills. same professions. same armors. same guild halls. No one has access to more. No one has access to less. Same choices for everyone. Its your choices that will determine if you win or lose.

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You are failing. Your suggestions will push PvE toons out of PvP. If you can't see that, too bad.

How would that work? By giving PVE chars complete access to all their unlocked skills? just like a PVP char?

I could essentially make a lvl 5 PVE Ranger, then go to Battle Isle, and poof, im lvl 20 with max armor with my stats of choosing and my weapons of choice and access to ALL the skills and runes and mods ive unlocked.

Now wouldnt that be cool?

Minus Sign · Sep 11, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

1. I conceed that PvE characters have advantages to PvP characters, as PvP has advantages thanks to balth faction and free customization. I state unequivicolly that PvE advantages are earned through time and money spent. I do not state in any way that those advantages are game breaking between players, nor that the outcome of a match will ever be decided because of armor swaps.

2. As is stated so often in so many threads about UAS and the new PuPs: you always have a choice (and if you believe that, I'll tell you another). No, I don't think it would be cool for lvl 5s to pop into arenas. I'd rather keep them locked out and in the low level arenas where they belong.

3. We already have access to the same armor, weapons, skills, etc. Can PvP characters equip PvE weapons? Can they equip PvE purchased runes?

4. If you've revived this thread for the sake of PvP only players then you must conceed that they are only playing half a game. It is for them to deal with the shortcomings of their decision not to play PvE, not force those who play the whole game down to their level. You still have not discounted this primary argument. Do you intend to?

5. Your continued attempts at a running analogy between cars not withstanding, you sidestep my point completely. How would the owner of a tweeked car react if you came to him and asked him to let the manufacturers strip out all his addons when he races it? Thats what you're asking Anet to do to my PvE toon. Thats what you are asking me to accept.

Red · Sep 11, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

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Originally Posted by Minus Sign

4. If you've revived this thread for the sake of PvP only players then you must conceed that they are only playing half a game. It is for them to deal with the shortcomings of their decision not to play PvE, not force those who play the whole game down to their level. You still have not discounted the primary argument. Do you intend to?

.... if your point is the bold, italicized, underlined IF YOU ONLY WANT TO PLAY HALF, EXPECT TO MISS OUT ON SOMETHING., then she already has discounted it. One post above yours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyra

The PVP only players are a part of my arguement. They are the reason i bumped this thread. This thread is more relevant than ever because of Anet's recent announcements.

There will be players who have no choice but PVP only when they release the Tournment Edition/PvP-Only version of Prophecies.

Haven't I been saying that?

They will only have the PVP part of the game. No PVE. How is fair for them?

Notice: by making a PvP edition, that has indeed become a legitmate game in and of itself--remember, ANet does not make Guild Wars expansions, they make stand-alones. [insert invitation to start a whole new thread about THAT matter]

Players who purchase the Tournament Edition, as it is being called by some IRCers, will indeed be PLAYING THEIR ENTIRE GAME, YET STILL MISSING OUT ON SOMETHING

I'm afraid your "half the game" justification begins to fall apart at that point.

Minus Sign · Sep 11, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Open eyes shut mouth and read 2 Redly. Then see 5 for counter and re-read 4 for emphasis.

EternalTempest · Sep 11, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

I don't think PvE should be altered

But I would expand PvP to allow multiple sets of armor and weapons to be on par with a PvE character.